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loregoddess · 3 months

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A continuation of my observations of the Octo2 traveler's weaknesses from here, now with fun visual diagrams! The above diagram shows each character's "base kit" (the weapons and elements they have access to w/out a secondary job) on the top row, and their weaknesses from the Dolcinaea fight on the bottom row.

Note that Agnea can't be charmed in this fight, so we don't actually know what her weaknesses are, but given that she has wind as her main element and how the elemental weaknesses tend to work (fire and ice are strong against each other, wind and lightning are strong against each other, and light and dark are strong against each other--based on the other Octo2 cast's weaknesses, and on how CotC usually handles elemental weaknesses, and using Tressa's weaknesses for reference), we can assume Agnea has at least a weakness to lightning. (CotC specifically seems to support this, since one of Agnea's passive skills gives her a buff to her lightning defense, and most characters in CotC who have access to only one element tend to get passive skills that buff their defense against their element's weakness, so I feel confident in saying Agnea should have a weakness to lightning).

As I observed in my first post, all the characters' weapon weaknesses tend to be the "opposite" of whatever their base kit weapon is (in type, i.e. long-range weapon users tend to be weak to close-range weapons and vice versa). The sort of exception to this is daggers, which get treated as both a long- and close-range weapon (the dagger attack animation has a character throwing a dagger--ranged--but it can also be used to stab someone, which we see multiple times in various cutscenes across Octo1, Octo2, and CotC). This means it's hard to figure out what sort of weapon weakness Agnea might have because she only uses a dagger as her base kit weapon.

Now I already discussed patterns in weaknesses and other observations in my first post, so I won't reiterate anything here (although I will quickly add some very astute people noted in their tags that Hikari being the only one we know for sure is weak to lightning is probably a reference to the thing with Rai Mei, which I missed initially but makes so much sense). But I wanted to take a look at who could break who in the party to see if the battle mechanics tied in with characterization, and set up the following diagrams for each character, so I could really dig into weird details.

(Under the cut bc this entire post is so very long, and there are more diagrams; ALSO SPOILERS, I do talk about a few endgame spoilers)

We'll start with Ochette who's actually capable of breaking the most other travelers at six. The only person she can't seem to hit (by herself) is Partitio, which is an interesting detail.

It makes a lot of sense that Ochette is the best at breaking other characters, given that she's a hunter (needs to be able to find critical weak points as part of her job). I've also written in the past how I think Ochette is actually one of the most emotionally intelligent characters in the group, and that she's probably way more aware of what's going on with the other travelers than she lets on--and way more in-tune with them than even they realize--but her ability to break most of them actually seems to support that as well.

I feel this gets reflected in her interactions with the other travelers, since Ochette is one of the few characters Throne and Osvald are pretty open with from the get-go, despite both being a bit closed off to the other travelers at first; the same goes for Temenos, although he tends to mask the fact that he's closed off, so it isn't as obvious at first glance.

Ochette is also the only traveler who ever comes close to finding out about Hikari's Shadow, since she can smell it "in" him. Likewise for Castti, in their second crossed paths the Shadow is able to capture and almost kill Castti, but not Ochette--Castii has a connection to the Shadow due to her exposure to Trousseau's rain (and a mental weak spot from the trauma of loosing patients in the past), and therefore is weak to the Shadow, so it seems fitting that Ochette is the one to "break" Castti free from the Shadow's trap.

As for Agnea, there is the sense that the two are opposites in their athletic abilities, given that Ochette is a very athletic and sure-footed hunter, whereas Agnea, while certainly athletic, still stumbles on occasion despite her years of work.

It also makes sense that Partitio is the only one Ochette can't break, since Partitio's name is also the only name Ochette struggles with, and she doesn't ever use his full name. Despite having a nickname for every traveler except Temenos, in battle Ochette uses their full names after they break an enemy, with the exception of Partitio. After Partitio breaks an enemy, Ochette uses the nickname she gives him ("Good hunting Pardy!") which is, if I recall correctly, unique to Paritio. His job and the entire concept of money is also baffling to Ochette, despite Partitio's best efforts to explain it to her.

It's interesting to note as well that even Ochette's two starting partners, Akala and Mahina, can each break 6 of the other travelers on their own (Akala can break everyone--assuming Agnea does have a weapon weakness we don't know about yet--but Akala can't break Hikari, who's a master of combat; Mahina can break everyone except Osvald, who's a master of magic). By the end of Ochette's story when she has the creatures of legend, she can actually break everyone (Akala + Tera and Glacis who each have elemental attacks that Hikari's weak to), and while Mahina + Tera and Glacis can't break Osvald still, if Ochette were fighting alongside them rather than just provoking with them, she herself would be able to break Osvald.

Given that Ochette is one of the best characters for breaking enemies just from a game mechanics standpoint, it's neat that this is reflected in her ability to apparently break nearly all the other travelers.

Castti can only break four of the other travelers, which is on the lower end (although not the lowest), but this seems to fit since story-wise she's a healer first, a fighter second (despite making an excellent damage-dealer).

The characters she can't break are people she treats like kids (Ochette and Agnea), and Osvald, who's one of the characters to tell Castti to take care of herself. Osvald's also arguably her peer, in that he's the oldest of the group and occasionally a parental figure to the others in some sense, the same way Castti takes on a pseudo-parental role on occasion, so she can't really "parent" him because Osvald is both literally a parent and, to some degree, figuratively the group's parent.

Likewise, all the characters she can break are characters who either get into lots of fights (Paritio and Hikari), or characters who would probably pretend they're not as hurt as they actually are when they do get hurt, or otherwise mask their pain a lot (Throne and Temenos). We see this in some of Castti's banters where she chides Partitio for getting into fights (she also tends to tease him relentlessly, and he's one of the only characters she teases), or how she worries after Throne, giving her check-ups out of the blue in one of their banters. Castti also has a banter with Temenos after the events of his Stormhail chapter where she checks in on his wellbeing, and while he sort of manages to redirect her attention away from him by complementing how well she looks after people, the fact remains that she did know he needed to be checked in on.

Castti really said none of you are getting away with not getting treated for your hurts or so help her.

Throne, surprisingly, only can only break four of the other travelers. Despite being raised and trained as a deadly assassin, the low number of travelers she can break might reflect her narrative "aversion to blood and killing". Throne is, after all, able to non-lethally knock people out as her nighttime path action, so her unwillingness, and inability, to hurt her allies does make sense for her characterization.

The people she can't break make a lot of sense--Throne's unable to sneak up on Ochette in their banters, and is always open and kind with Ochette. She and Hikari share shadowy ancestry, and he's a skilled warrior, so it might be harder for her to find and opening and get the drop on him (esp. considering how his Shadow might react to their shared blood ties to D'arqest).

Agnea's entire character arc is more or less centered around trying to inspire hope in everyone she meets, and Throne herself hopes to be free, so it'd make sense for Throne to follow after Agnea's hope rather than trying to fight against her.

The people Throne can break are interesting as well, especially since she is the most effective against Temenos, covering 3/4 of his weaknesses with her base kit. Temenos really isn't able to hide any of his weaknesses against Throne, which makes sense given their interactions and teamwork in their crossed path story arc.

She's also one of the only characters to throw Castti off a few times (i.e. the banter where Throne almost talks Castti into letter her steal stuff from Timberain's royal family bc Throne thinks Castti would look pretty in the jewelry).

Throne also has a banter with Partitio where she gets him to realize how over-trusting he can be by talking him into letting her take the check from Alrond--which she doesn't do, but she definitely exploited a few of his social weaknesses and could have stolen the check from him easily, in front of his face no less. (Although if I recall correctly, Partitio then has her hold onto the check for safekeeping anyhow, just because he trusts her that much).

Osvald is a bit of a surprise, given how few weaknesses he has and how vigilant he seems to be, but Throne is a professional and given that Osvald was unable to escape prison without Emerald's help (who also seems to be a thief, given that he uses a dagger when playable), it makes sense that Throne could potentially get the better of him. There's also the fact that she's the granddaughter of D'arqest, and Osvald has spent his life investigating the source of D'arqest's magic, the answer to which eludes him till the very end of his story.

Osvald can break five of the other travelers, which is the second-most after Ochette. This matches well with his ability to scrutinize people, and his general observant nature.

He can't break Throne, which as noted previously, may be due to how close her blood-ties are to D'arqest. Studying the Pit of D'arqest and trying to figure out what the source of his magic was is Osvald's life study, the answer to which eludes him most of the story, so it does make sense that Throne, the granddaughter of D'arqest, would also elude him (esp. considering that while Osvald does learn about the Shadow, the answer he finds to the One True Magic is entirely separate and opposite to the Shadow). Hikari has the same blood-ties, but it's strongly implied he is a much further descendant of D'arqest than Throne is, so even though Hikari literally has the Shadow living in him, he's not tied to D'arqest the same way Throne is (as she's the daughter of Vide's "perfect vessel" and was raised in hopes that she could succeed as a vessel instead, even if this ultimately fails).

Osvald also can't break Temenos, which actually does reflect their general relationship well. In one of their banters, Osvald makes a note of how much Temenos talks without ever saying what his point is, and generally seems to find Temenos's whimsical façade to be a hassle to deal with on occasion. It's funny, in a way, that Temenos is one of the few people Osvald can't seem to figure out, but also speaks to each of their personalities--Osvald is honest bordering on rudeness, and always straightforward with how he speaks, whereas Temenos keeps a great deal of his inner thoughts and feelings to himself while speaking in a roundabout way, hiding what he actually wants to say behind stories from the scriptures or lighthearted jabs.

That Osvald can break everyone else reflects his observant nature, for sure, but it's also interesting that he can break characters like Agnea and Ochette, both of whom he treats as surrogate daughters to some level or another...though perhaps the fact that he can break them reflects his parenting style, wherein he wouldn't want to hold back any important lessons, even if they were somewhat unpleasant.

As noted before, Osvald's one of the few characters who points out how reckless Castti can be with her own health, so it makes sense he'd be able to break her. Hikari makes sense, given that he's trained in martial arts rather than magical arts, so Osvald and Hikari are strong in what the other is weak in. And, Partitio is open and honest, almost to a fault, which, like how Throne can get a good read on Partitio, probably makes Partitio fairly easy for Osvald to get a read on as well.

Like Osvald, Partitio can break five of the other travelers. This, paired with his distinct lack of weaknesses, does seem to reflect the fact that, despite being sincere and a starting off untraveled, Partitio is wicked smart and very aware of what's going on around him, skills he needs to be a successful merchant.

Partitio can't break Agnea as far as we know, which seems to reflect their banter where Partitio nearly gives her his money after she explains how she raised enough money to start traveling (Angea notably has enough money for her travels, it's Paritio who needs to come up with more money, but here he is trying to give her more money anyhow).

Partitio being unable to break Temenos may have to do with Partitio truly not being able to get a good read on Temenos because of how Temenos is (re: puts up a façade, keeps his feelings to himself, etc.), but there's also the shared banter between Castti, Partitio, Temenos, and Agnea where, a bit drunk and therefore letting his guard slip a bit, we see that Temenos can be rather cynical, as he shoots down the idea of new paper plays about their travels rather quickly. This puts his personality at odds with both Partitio and Agnea, who are unfailingly optimistic (and optimistic enough they eventually convince Temenos their idea isn't that naïve).

The fact that Partitio can break the rest of the party is just testament to his astuteness and flexibility as a merchant, since he can break more stoic characters like Osvald and Throne (Partitio hits it off pretty quickly with both, not even giving Throne a hard time for her thieving habits and instead bonding over their shared love of fashion, as any merchant good at networking might do), while also finding a way past Hikari's defenses (although Hikari's usually pretty straightforward on matters not related to his Shadow, so Partitio's able to connect with him pretty easily as well). As noted earlier, Partitio is the only character Ochette cannot break without one of her partners, and his name is the only one that really trips her up.

Partitio being able to break Castti comes as a bit of a surprise, given that the majority of their banters have Castti teasing Partitio or chiding him for his reckless behavior. There is the sense that Partitio respects Castti a great deal and is still paying attention to what she does, as seen in their banter during her Timberain chapter, where Paritio reminds Castti that her ability to convince the soldiers to get the people indoors to safety was due to her hard work, and that while it's true there's more for her to do, she shouldn't undersell the worth of all that she has already managed to achieve. From this, we get the sense that teasing and chiding aside, Partitio is still keeping tabs on Castti and is clearly able to get a read on her, even if he doesn't intervene as often in her personal affairs.

Despite being the only one whose weaknesses we don't know for certain, Agnea can break five other travelers as well. This makes sense from a game mechanics standpoint, since Dolcinaea is Agnea's boss fight and Agnea can't be charmed during the fight, so she ideally has to have a chance to break whoever Dolcinaea does charm. But this also reflects well how Agnea is able to win over so many people throughout her travels, as her pursuit of hope and desire to bring joy to people never wavers and inspires others.

The only two she can't break are Partitio and Throne. Given the infamous peaches banter, it makes sense Agnea can't break Partitio, since she didn't realize he was talking about the basket of peaches she was literally holding until the very end of the banter, and by then was too flustered to stick around (Partitio is, notably, clueless to the fact that Agnea thought he was talking about some entirely different peaches).

Throne makes sense as well because she's a slightly older, and definitely more experienced, woman than Agnea. As a country girl coming to the city, Agnea is ignorant to all of the dark things a city could hold, while Throne is a city girl who grew up literally in the shadows of all the wicked things in a city. Agnea's general ignorance puts her at a slight disadvantage to Throne's knowledge, although it should be noted that Throne is also inspired by Agnea's kindness and hope, and supports Agnea rather than looking down on her ignorance and naivety.

While we can assume that Agnea can break most of the other travelers for battle mechanics purposes, and to make sure the player has a chance to retrieve the charmed character even if Agnea is the only character they have to do that, it is interesting that she can break most of the characters from a narrative standpoint.

Characters like Osvald and Castti treat Agnea like a kid (Agnea seems to be a surrogate daughter to Osvald specifically), so it could be she's able to get to both of them because they want to dote on her a bit like a parent might (although for Castti, the resident healer, the fact that Agnea can break her might be due to Agnea's habit of occassionally rushing into things that causes some vexation to Castti).

Temenos notably has a difficult time communicating with Agnea, so Agnea's ability to break him could have something to do with the fact that Temenos is never able to get his point across to Agnea in a few of their banters (i.e. when Agnea forgets that he's the inquisitor and thinks his job is that of a detective or a paper play artist, and all of Temenos's attempts to correct her fail; likewise his attempt to get Agnea to take care of herself--before helping Laila get new shoes--via a story of Aelfric goes right over Agnea's head). It's not so much that Agnea is that naïve, but rather Temenos's roundabout way of doing things seems to make it more difficult for him to communicate clearly with her.

Agnea being able to break Hikari could be explained as well by her unwavering optimism and journey for hope. Compared to Hikari's childhood, Agnea hasn't experienced the same hardships, so her belief in bringing joy and happiness to people may seem naïve at first. But Hikari's entire end-goal for Ku isn't that different, as he wishes for peace and prosperity and an end to the bloodshed and war that's plagued his country and torn asunder his family and the families of his people. So despite the fact that Agnea's coming from an entirely different set of life experiences, her desire to bring about a more hopeful, brighter future aligns with Hikari's own desire for a better future, so it makes sense then that Agnea could break through to Hikari because he believes deeply in her vision even before he meets her. (This is also somewhat reflected in Mikka and Pala's side story in the postgame, as it's Pala who's able to break through to Mikka).

Ochette's the most surprising, although Agnea is one of the first travelers to share cooked food with Ochette in one of their early banters, so in the realm of food at least Agnea knows ways to prepare it that Ochette loves (even though Castti also later cooks for Ochette but can't break her). There's also the banter in Agnea's final chapter where Ochette talks about how much she loves Gil's piano playing, and she mentions several times how much she enjoys Agnea's dances and singing, so it could be that Ochette is weak to the performing arts.

Temenos has the fewest number of travelers that he can break, making him the opposite of Ochette. Now, technically he could break every traveler with his latent ability, but without putting in the extra effort he's not able to break most of the others. This is interesting considering his entire thing is being able to get information by talking with people (the coerce nighttime path action, despite being a battle, is probably supposed to be a metaphor for the "mental battle" waged when trying to get information from someone). Despite his acuity with detective work and unravelling mysteries, he has quite the difficult time unravelling his traveling companions. It's possible that, like Castti, this actually reflects the fact that he is a healer technically (even if, in Temenos's shared banter with Castti and Partitio, Partitio suggests that Temenos's "healing" style focuses more on the spirit, rather than physical wounds the way Castti's healing does).

Who he can break are interesting choices. Throne is the least surprising, since the two are opposites while being quite alike, although Temenos notably can only hit one of Throne's weaknesses while she can hit most of his.

Meanwhile, Ochette is probably one of the least deceptive travelers, never hiding much of anything, so it could be Temenos has an easier time reading her because she's straightforward with her thoughts and feelings pretty much all the time. This might explain why Temenos can break Partitio as well, since while Partitio is capable of using his merchant's gift of rhetoric to inspire people to his cause, he is incredibly honest, straightforward, and open about himself as well, and very trusting of other people (the opposite of Temenos's innate doubt).

If we work off the idea that Temenos has an easier time reading Ochette and Partitio because of their openness, then most of the characters Temenos can't break make sense. Hikari, while not outright deceptive, never tells any of the other party members about his struggles with his Shadow (although he comes close and talks about it indirectly with Temenos and Castti in one of their banters), and therefore we can say that Hikari is somewhat secretive and very good at keeping his secrets.

Castti likewise, while she's not trying to keep secrets intentionally and also isn't deceptive, suffers amnesia and can't remember much of anything of her past at the start of her story (Temenos can't inquire about something someone doesn't know). Even after she regains her memories, it's hard to say how openly Castti would discuss her experiences or not, since we don't see them brought up in detail during her travel banters often.

Osvald doesn't keep anything secret, on purpose or accident, and is very straightforward when he speaks, but he's also taciturn and prefers not to chat, so it makes sense Temenos would have a hard time breaking him since Temenos can't learn something from someone who won't talk to him, and there's the general impression that even Osvald's body language is a bit withdrawn (I say "general impression" bc despite the limits of sprite art, Osvald doesn't move around as expressively or actively as other characters like Ochette or Angea, and even his unique Bewildering Grace dance is the most restrained of the eight).

As noted earlier Temenos also has a difficult time communicating his point to Agnea in several of their shared banters. It should be noted as well that Agnea is the youngest character in the group, and Temenos tends to be "weak" to children, with how he lets Ochette talk him into reading Acta a story because Acta is a baby, or with the children of his church teasing him for his mistakes in his paper plays (although I think his mistakes are intentional, as I explained in this post here, but Temenos does seem to have something of a soft spot for children, possibly because they tend to be more honest or possibly because he takes his duties teaching/guiding them more seriously than he lets on).

Surprisingly, despite his martial prowess, Hikari can only break four other travelers. Like we see with Throne, this could speak to his nature, as Hikari is very kindhearted and values his friends dearly, and his desire not to hurt anyone but especially the people he cares about is what allows Hikari to stave off, and eventually defeat, his Shadow. Indeed, like how Castti is a healer first, fighter second, there's the impression that Hikari--despite being a warrior--is a protector first, and a warrior second.

Hikari can't break Castti, which is interesting, because Castti was "infected" by Trousseau's poison rain and carried a bit of the Shadow around with her, it's possible Hikari couldn't break her even if he wanted due to his blood curse. Likewise Hikari can't break Throne, just as she can't break him, and with their shared blood ties to D'arqest and Vide, and I wonder how much of the Shadow being something of an offshoot, or "servant", to Vide, alongside Throne being the daughter of Vide's intended perfect vessel, potentially has to do with this.

Hikari's Shadow, and Castti and Throne's connections to it, don't explain why he can't break Agnea, but it could be that Agnea's earnest journey for hope and continual optimism even in the face of darkness is something he respects enough that he would never and could never bring himself to harm her, since he believes deeply in her vision of hope.

It's interesting then that he can break Ochette, who is canonically the character who seems to be closest to the Flame, but at the same time both are warriors of a sort, so it could be more of a friendly sparring thing. Osvald makes some sense, in that Hikari is a master of physical combat and Osvald is not, so naturally they're both weak to what the other is skilled in.

Partitio is a bit surprising, but if we take into considering that it's implied Partitio gets into fights on impulse due to being a bit hot-blooded, it does make sense that Hikari, who's always cool and calm under a fight (when he isn't staving off the Shadow) could get the upper hand on Paritio if they sparred.

Hikari being able to break Temenos makes sense in regards to his shared banter with Temenos and Throne, where the three play poker and try to needle each other into giving up, with Throne and Temenos failing to throw each other off, before Hikari ultimately gets them both to give up the game, potentially getting Temenos to cry in the process (which is an incredible feat on Hikari's part, given that Temenos is never shown or implied to cry during the events of his story despite two people he cared deeply about being murdered, and just how careful Temenos is in general with keeping up a certain façade around others).

One last thing I'd like to talk about is the number of other travelers each traveler is weak to, which I think has more to do with game mechanics than with characterization. Every character is weak to five other characters, with the exception of Throne and Partitio who are only weak to four. This is really excellent in terms of mechanics balancing, since the only reason these weaknesses exist is because characters can be charmed during the Dolcinaea fight, so it makes sense that the player should be given a fair shot to break the charmed character with whichever team setup they went into the battle with, especially so for players who go in blind.

Agnea obviously is the major exception to this, being unable to be charmed means we can at best guess at her weaknesses. Which is fitting because the player wouldn't have to worry about losing Agnea in the battle (and generally speaking, in my experience Agnea's usually able to output enough damage by this point in the game that she can retrieve the charmed character with a fully boosted attack without even needing to break them, meaning I, as the player, didn't even have to really worry about who Dolcinaea charmed in terms of strategy). In theory if she could have been charmed, I imagine she would have had 4-5 characters who could break her with their base kit, just for gameplay balancing purposes.

Aaand, that's...all I think I wanted to jot down for my continued observations. With the bonus battle updates to Octo2, I plan to put together a similar post (or two) for the Octo1 travelers, since we now have access to their weaknesses as well. I'm still not trying to make any point per se, just rambling on things I observed and how the game mechanics seem to tie in with story characterization, which I always think is a neat thing when it occurs in games. Thanks for reading if you made it this far, bc this got way longer than I was expecting!

#octopath traveler #octopath traveler 2 #octopath ii #I finally finished this! finally!#*lies on ground*#but I still have lots of thoughts so after a short break I'm sure I'll be writing stuff for Octopath again in no time #game mechanics tying in with narrative elements my beloved ~ <3 #apologies for any weird typos though I've been writing this for a couple of weeks now & honestly have probably been looking at it too long #oracle of lore

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lord-squiggletits · 9 months

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On the MegOP fandom trend of saying "Optimus should apologize to Megatron"

(Speaking specifically for IDW1, though it applies to a lot of MegOP especially ones that do continuity soup with heavy reference to IDW1)

I was talking to a friend in DMs and they mentioned a common headcanon/fanfic trope that I also concurred with, and both of us said it's something that bothers us: a common take in the MegOP fandom goes basically along the lines of "If Optimus had just apologized to Megatron, the war would've ended" (or other variants including "if he'd tried harder to understand Megatron/work in collaboration with him").

And firstly, this is incorrect for a number of reasons:

There were attempts at peace negotiations during the war, but they fell through. So Optimus WAS trying to work with Megatron to the point of participating in formal diplomatic meetings.

Optimus tried multiple times on page to convince Megatron to just stop fighting and work with him for peace (Autocracy, Chaos Theory) that Megatron rejected. Given that these on-page examples take place at the start of the war and at the end of the war respectively, it makes sense that Optimus asking Megatron for collaboration is something he was trying/willing to do the entire time. So again, Optimus was always willing AND ATTEMPTING to work with Megatron and find a joint solution

Even before the war when Optimus was still Orion, he was very explicitly inspired by Megatron's writing and names Megatron as one of the people who "opened his eyes" to the wrongs of Cybertronian society. So how is it that people claim "the war went on for too long because Optimus never tried to understand Megatron" when OP literally named Megatron as one of his biggest idols, thus implying that OP does understand Megatron's ideals

But the primary purpose of this post wasn't to defend Optimus, actually. Even though I personally think Optimus did plenty (dare I say, everything) to try to end the war, there are some who may still think otherwise, so instead of arguing about whether Optimus did "enough", or who should apologize to whom, or who "deserves the blame" for starting/continuing the war, I'd actually rather talk about this:

No matter who is most "to blame" for the war, it's my firm belief that neither Megatron nor Optimus would even expect/demand the other to apologize to them at all.

On Megatron's side, he would never seek to judge Optimus negatively for the decisions to the point of saying "you wronged me, apologize." Whether it's evil Megatron who doesn't care about atrocities and revels in an opportunity to expose Optimus as a hypocrite, or post-war/Autobot Megatron who knows that his own evil actions are irredeemable, the idea of Megatron judging Optimus and demanding an apology for the war specifically strikes me as out-of-character. Why would Megatron demand or even want an apology from Optimus when Megatron knows fully well that he has his own sins to bear, he prolonged the war for his own selfish/material gain, and that he is responsible for an untold amount of suffering? Demanding an apology would imply that Megatron sees himself as the wronged party and Optimus as the wrongdoer, but by the end of the war, Megatron is too aware of his own part in the war to ever demand such a thing of Optimus. Even if he DID think that Optimus was "equally to blame" for the war (which he doesn't/wouldn't, btw), Megatron's own feelings of guilt would prevent him from trying to seek the petty satisfaction of the moral high ground or making Optimus beg for his forgiveness.

Additionally, Megatron knows Optimus very well as a person: he knows that the position of leadership is full of "loneliness [and] agonizing self-doubt" for Optimus (Chaos Theory) and that "when Optimus hurts others, he hurts himself" (MTMTE). Another reason that Megatron wouldn't demand nor want an apology from Optimus is because Megatron knows Optimus so well that he already knows that being a war leader fills Optimus with immense guilt and suffering. Given that Megatron knows about Optimus' self-doubt and guilt, why would he even need an apology when he already knows how much Optimus regrets the war and desperately wishes/wished for it to end?

Then, as established in the previous paragraphs, Optimus is too full of guilt for his part in the war (both before it started and in being unable to stop it sooner) to demand an apology from Megatron. Again, demanding an apology would put Optimus in an implied position of moral superiority and/or victimhood, but Optimus doesn't see himself as morally superior or as a victim (or rather, he sees himself as being responsible for these bad things happening and internalizes this as a duty to do better/fix wrongdoings). In other words, Megatron and Optimus both share this view of themselves and each other: Their hands are so dirty, and they both feel such guilt over this, and they know each other well enough to know that the other feels this way as well. Because both of them feel blame for the war and are acutely aware of their own flaws/part in suffering, both of them feel far too responsible for the war happening for them to ever blame their archnemesis for "not trying harder" or "being responsible for the war."

Hell, if you even look at the socio-political climate of Cybertron before the war started, neither Megatron nor Optimus were the ones who put this conflict into motion. The corrupt legacy of the Primes, Functionism, class issues-- all of these things existed before Megatron and Optimus did. Even once they started doing things like writing about social issues (M) or fighting against the Senate (OP), both of them were "underlings" in sense that they weren't leaders:

Megatron's writings may have inspired the Decepticon movement, but that movement existed as an independent entity with its own leaders and speakers long before Megatron became the "official" ruler of the Decepticons. He wasn't even the leader of the 'Cons until he took control of the gladiator arena and the nonviolent sections of the Decepticons were (presumably) subsumed into the underground, exploitative battle culture that Megatron created.

Optimus-as-Orion was a police officer to start, but even once he started going against the Senate, he mainly worked in collaboration with others like Senator Shockwave and Zeta (later Zeta Prime), who he either saw as his idols or who were literally superior to him in rank due to government/military structures.

So with this in mind, even from a social level, while Megatron and Optimus may have been "catalysts" of a sort that caused the war to escalate to an outright planetary/galactic level, the scenario is too complex to solely lay the blame for the war at either of their feet. I'm not confident in saying that Megatron/Optimus would explicitly think of this when talking to each other, but what I'm trying to say is that M/OP were just catalysts in a long chain of brewing tension that exploded into a war. Even if one could claim that one of them "started" or "escalated" the war, the social issues that caused the war and the positions of power that allowed them to become leaders in the first place were falling into place before either of them actually BECAME leaders.

In other words, this shared fate of being the final reaction that exploded a societal conflict into outright war... Megatron and Optimus both have that in common. And because of this, I really don't think either of them would even think to ask the other to apologize because they're both in such similar positions, with such similar feelings of guilt and responsibility, that they understand each other's feelings without words. To demand an apology would be akin to taking that shared vulnerability/guilt and stepping on it, attempting to claim that one is right/superior and the other is wrong/inferior, and that the inferior one needs to grovel and take responsibility for the bad things that happened.

#squiggposting #idw megop #idk if this'll get me hate or not but it's something i think about a lot #and verbalizing it to that friend in DMs helped me put into words why that common fanon take bothers me #also. hot take but if any 'apologies' are necessary then it's M who should be apologizing to OP #the war may be both of their faults but M is the one who explicitly did/said things just to hurt OP and break his spirit #i'm tired of ppl who don't understand (or at least don't discuss) how hurt OP is and how he deserves recogniztion of his feelings too #megop #then again this fanon take may just be a consequence of continuity soup culture #where ppl don't have to acknowledge specific things that M or OP did bc they can just selectively include or not include details from canon #so like. i guess in their continuity soup continuties their fanon is technically correct #but in terms of the source material which is the one shared experience we all have and the common language we derive fanon from #this fanon is very incorrect. or at least i hope i've managed to argue that it's incorrect #anyways the thesis of megop is that they're equals and opposites who are inextricably tied to each other #fanon that tries to place the blame on one or castigate one of them is missing the point of megop #the point is that they're equal. equally strong and charismatic and amazing. and equally culpable #even if they're not literally equally responsible for idw megop at least they at least both FEEL responsible #and i don't think idw megops are the type to mince words about who's 'more responsible'#they're both depressed old men who hate themselves and regret basically their whole lives. why would they judge each other like that

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